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Cabinet Battle – This is Only a Test 563 – 8/20/20

Epic takes on Apple in the biggest tech story this week, as the team explains the conflict in a mock trial with advocates for both parties. What’s actually at stake for users and developers? Plus, the response to Oculus’s terms of service updates, the state of Covid testing, and how a shuffle button would and should work on Netflix. Thanks to Chip McDonald for composing this week’s intro music! Keep them coming!

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Tested is:
Adam Savage
Norman Chan
Joey Fameli
Gunther Kirsch
Ryan Kiser
Jen Schachter
Kishore Hari
Sean Charlesworth
Jeremy Williams
Kayte Sabicer
Bill Doran
Ariel Waldman
Darrell Maloney
Kristen Lomasney

Intro bumper by Abe Dieckman
Set design by Danica Johnson
Set build by Asa Hillis

Video transcription:

let's start the show for thursday august20th 2020. welcome to this is only a
test the official podcastof testedall right that was interesting well done
that was it uhi click like that was a intro piece
created bychip mcdonald thank you so much chip for
sending itthat was sent to us way back in june
that's how long we've been doing thisbut keep them coming it's been great
i've been loving hearingdifferent styles of intro themes some of
them longersome of them shorter following the rules
you can send them over twittersoundcloud preferred
i can download it and we guarantee wewill play them
in a future episode in fact we may neverhave
a permanent theme song maybe that's ourthing a rotating theme song
every week something look forward toanyway i'm norm
welcome to the show this week and asalways i have with me
jeremy williams hi norm hi jeremyi heard you were building some lego over
the weekend dudedude the nintendo set is so good it is
so good like it is my favorite and youguys were ragging on it because
it's just a gray boxthe set we've been sold on the set we
know we like the tv but you were sayingthe console
just the gray box isn't it i gotta tellyou i challenge you
to find me any lego kit that looksso much like the original thing that it
could be mistaken for itand this thing i guarantee you anybody
walks in this room is going to thinkoh he has a he has a nest sitting there
on his little entertainment system nextto the other legos
is that what you want out of lego for itto look so realistic
look i i what i want from lego is is toappreciate the the ingenuity the
engineering of the thing of thecraftsmanship
as i build it and this has that indroves and i'm only
on the the console like the thing thatit does it has like a
do you know how you put the cartridge inand it goes down it has a spring-loaded
thing that goes down like the originalmechanism yeah yeah yeah
it stays down and then you click itagain to make it come up and that's done
mechanically with legoit's crazy that is cool i didn't know
that of course i haven't startedbuilding mine yet you're giving spoilers
nowi'm going to take your word for it are
there parts that are internalin the nes that i guess uh are hidden
after the buildthat's one of those things i appreciate
if some of the fan builds where like youyou build things it's almost like gundam
you build the internalsand you as a builder know it's there but
once you've completed it the facadehides it do you know about this you're
feeding me thisthere is no there is an easter egg and
it's been published and i will not spoilit for you
okay but i will tell you i will tell youi forgot about it
because i'd read the easter egg and i'dforgotten about it and i was building
this thing thinkingwhat the heck is this this doesn't look
right atall like the colors are wrong i don't
remember thisand then as soon as i saw it my mind
all right hyping it up i have to buildmine sometime in the future
we've reached the we've reached thelevel where now
builds have spoilers in them we have toput spoiler warnings on
builds this is new level that's whatyou're paying for with like a 21 bags
you're in one every dayyeah okay a few weeks all right we'll
check in with you two weeks later andsee it see how it goes
kashore how are you doing i'm doinggreat
hockey's back on oh i watched so muchhockey
norm it's it's not healthy how muchhockey i've been watching
i'm watching hockey right now and i knowyou were probably doing it last week we
didn't have you on we missed you uhwe're gonna have
a moment of science i know there are alot lots to talk about lots to update on
um but the if you're in the bay area ifyou're in california you'll know that
the sky is burning right nowso everyone in a hot zone
uh literally please stay safe becausethese fires are no joke it's been
extremely drythe lightning has not helped and as of
right nownone of this is contained so stay
indoors it's another reasonto not go outside because air quality uh
in the area is justnot so great listen to a podcast build
some legoall recommended things to do and for us
next thing is to talk about our topstorytop story this week i don't have my
coffeethat's not the top story i just realized
the ritual i haveof playing the interstitial music and
then sipping a cup of coffee iwent to grab for it and i realized i
didn't have iti'm so bummed it's totally gonna screw
with meoh okay our top story is so many things
may suffermay yeah we're gonna keep it short
that's why uhso many top stories to choose from i had
to debate in my head whether we're goingto talk about
oculus or apple epic we're going to talkabout apple epic because i think that
in the grand scheme of things in termsof the things that impact
the most people immediately right nowthat's what matters
uh but it is a little bit of a follow-upfrom our discussion about microsoft and
apple last week the revelations of whyxcloud will not work on ios because of
the app store guidelines this is notexactly that
but you may have heard that epic is ina little bit of a fight with
apple so to presentthe size of this because there are a lot
of points to considerwe're going to try a new format where
our two co-hosts here jeremy cashore youguys are going to present the arguments
from each side is that right how's thisgonna work
i said i'd be happy to present eitherside because i'm an open-minded
individual but i i did sayit'd be fun if i did epic i'm happy to
do epic and uhand kashura uh you said that you'd be
willing to represent apple hereyeah i am i am no apple fan but
today only uh i'm going i'm goingfull jobs here i'm ready to defend
my brethren in uh at theufo spaceship let's do this yeah i mean
advocacy doesn't alwaysyeah align with your personal beliefs
butthe facts let's let's lay out the facts
first so what happenedlast week i'm sure uh the big thing
you may have heard is fortnite was takenoff not only ios but the google play
store and it only beeninstated in the google play store for
four months or soepic had previously uh asked users to
side load on the android devices becausethey wanted to avoid the
30 in that purchase cut thatgoogle would take and that is exactly
why uhthey're kind of instigating this uh
maybe that'sthat's too strong a word we're gonna or
but one of the one of their one of theirtheir their problems with the current
infrastructureis uh this 30 cut on the ios side so
fortnite removed from ios store and thenmore recently
uh just two days ago um apple hadannounced that they would as of august
28th revokeepic's developer license for
ios uh meaning that epic would say thatsays that would mean that they will not
be able to continueunreal engine development on ios devices
not only for fortnite for for anydeveloper licensing
unreal so where should we beginwelcome to permaban country jeremy
population epiclet's see what you got small detail uh
epicunlocked within the ios and and the
android versions of fortnite the abilityto make in-app purchases directly
to epic for a two dollar or20 discount you get the same v bucks
for two dollars less if you pay directlywith epic
versus go through the official storeswhich was still an option
so that kind of that that system thatin-app system
um is the thing that bypassesapple's policy of needing to go through
theirsystem of payment of customer service uh
and what it does is it does affect thenew new downloads of fortnite but i
think for people whocurrently have already installed
fortnite you could still play fortniteand
uh you can uninstall and even reinstallit so
let's start with the the epic side ofthe argument
jeremy representing team epiconly uh what three billion dollars in
value 17 billion dollars in valuation isthat right what's what's the
compared to two trillion you know whowhat does that even matter
uh mr chan is that a computer you'resitting in front of is that a pc or a
macit's a pc it's a pc imagine if you
sitting at that pcall of the software that you have on
that pc imagine if youpurchased every piece of software on
there every creative appevery web browser every text editor
every unzipprogram everything you've ever bought
online as well asall of the purchases that you've made
within those apps if you made those froma
single store onlinei think you would call it absurd i think
you would you would not want this foryourself or for anyone else because
you could call that a monopoly whichof course is illegal and you wouldn't
want that the government wouldn't wantthat people wouldn't want that
and yet that is exactly the situationthat we have here on ios and ipad os
where every single appis bought through one store the app
storeand when it was unveiled 10 years ago
steve jobs saidlet's give the developers 70 of
everything that's sold on the app storeand that was probably at the time i
think that was a generous thing to do imean they're coming from
developers traditionally get far lessthan that in the retail
industry when they have to box somethingand ship it and put it on shelves
seventy percent seemed great and thirtypercent he said that we'll hold on to
uh in order to run the app store youknow not not a source of profit in fact
he saidhe said publicly that he didn't expect
the app store to be a source of profitfor apple
well times they change don't theydon't say my friend from apple yes they
dobecause now we are 10 years later and i
would say at the timeyou know that 30 for apple probably went
to good good use they had to build theapp store
they didn't have the uh the the phone uhmarket share they do now they didn't
have the number of users and sonor the number of apps and so that 30
probably meant something butmany years later as just with the laws
of manufacturing if you the moreof something that you make the cheaper
each individual thing becomesthe more users you have the cheaper it
is to run that app storewhat was that economies of scale exactly
now now let's just imagine apple's neversaid publicly
how much they earn from the app store sothat that it really is
what's at stake here like does appleneed that 30
or are they just stealing it fromdevelopers and our
common customers that we share welllet's take a look at what that profit
could be they've never actually publiclysaid but we can deduce it
what would you say if if i said over thepast
10 years apple has earned let's say abillion dollars in revenue from that
from the app store a billion that soundslow
and yet a billion dollars a thousandmillion dollars that is a billion
dollars yeswhat could you buy with that i'll tell
you theaverage software engineer at apple the
world's best software engineersthey earn a hundred and fifty thousand
dollars a yeara billion dollars is enough to hire over
650software engineers every year
for the past 10 years and put them towork on the app store
now that's absurd of course you don'tneed 650 software engineers to run the
app store so let's say just forargument's sake you only take half that
which is still an absurd number you havehundreds of millions of dollars left
over to pay for infrastructure pay foryour hard drives and your bandwidth
costsand your design costs for the app store
you know what the more i think about itthat actually seems like a fair amount
to have to pay to run the app storea billion dollars over the past 10 years
and yetsadly we know that apple does
earn far more than that a grotesqueamount more than that in fact they earn
fivetimes that every year
over the past decade they've earned 51billion dollars from the app store from
absolute revenuefrom that 30 percent now
that is a grotesque amount of profitthat should otherwise could otherwise be
left with developers to make betterproducts to be given back to consumers
which is what we want to doas seen very clearly in our demonstrated
in-app purchase direct to epic where yousave
20 we think you should save maybe 10for yourself which is still it would be
17 billion dollarsover the past 10 years if you kept 10
instead of 30 that would be fairand i think that clearly
clearly you can agree with me mr chanthat
the delegate from apple here haswell well taken more than his fair share
from this market and in closing i justwant to say
that i think apple is probablymissing the point they they should be
fightingfor just please let us hang on to this
10 that i'm suggesting they should beasking for instead of 30. when really in
reality what we're asking for and whatpeople want from
what our customers demand from them andwhat we think congress will agree upon
is that there needs to be an alternatepath to that app store that cuts
apple out entirely they should not bethe only
uh you know place where one can buysoftware or install software there
should be a way to install it anopt-in process for users to install
software themselvesas they can on android as they can on
every pcplatform that existed before the ios
and that is what we think is the rightthing to do and we hope you'll back us
up on thisthank you for your time free free
fortnitei give you your argument eight out of
ten uhlast two out of ten disappointing it was
not in rap formthat was my biggest appointment there i
think you should get a god i think theaudience should
exactly i think it should get a plus onethat we didn't see jeremy rap
uh your honor secretary hariyeah your your honor i just want to
thank ourmy colleague at epic for just extolling
why apple is such a good companyuh apparently my friend at epic whose
entire business model is selling fakecurrency
for real currency um has forgotten whatthe word
capitalism means the point is todeliver better products with better
servicein exchange for money and that's what
apple has spentthe last 50 years maybe 40
doing you knew what the agreement wascoming to the app store
it was 30 across the board we don't makeexceptions for anyone
it's 30 for everybody and you've optedinto this
and in exchange you get accessto millions maybe even billions of
peoplewho have also opted into the app store
because they believein what we offer those millions of users
don't come forfree we do a lot of work in developing
products that they believe in securesystems so they know the apps that they
install willwork and not create additional um
security issues on their devices and wecreate experiences that we know our
users willlove being on the app store is a
privilegeit is not a right and that is true
becausethere are other options out there enjoy
your time at google play or the amazonapp store i tell you my friend
because they are available to you so uhthis is not a monopoly in any way shape
or formthe second thing i might remind
my friend at epic is thatwhat he uh what they just experienced
was a clear rule that has been applieduniversally across all of our apps
for many years we have been inconversation with epic
for many months about how if they enablethis feature
they will be banned and epic's responsewas to preemptively hire a law firm
uh an anti-trust law firm and thenenabled this feature
they were searching for this ban theywere not
looking for a solution around thisand let me tell you a little something
about this game so-called game calledfortnite fortnite the rage of
2018 uh anduh what what you might have noticed if
you take a deeper lookat this game is that their user base has
leveled off you'll notice that some ofthe
top streamers who drive a lot of theadoption of games
no longer play fortnite whywhy now is epic looking
for a better deal on the percentage isit perhaps
that they their business is unableto attract new users and in order to
keep revenues up they're looking fora better arrangement with their vendor
and the vendor in our in our case usis saying no because that would be
unfair to everyone elsein the app store who is paying us to
createa fantastic experience for them apple
is playing by the rules that we setyears ago epic is the one saying those
rules don't applyjust to them they are no hero in this
fightthey are fighting to maintain the
profits of a gamewhere you exchange real currency for
fake in-store currency so you can haveyour character
do a dance like let's not makefortnite be something that is changing
the experience and lives of users aroundthis world
it is not it is a silly gameand frankly your honor i have better
things to dothan to talk to this pittance of a
company uhabout their experience in the app store
because we havebillions of of users across this world
that depend on the app store and theproducts that we make
to liv to deliver a great experienceespecially in these hard times
i yield my timei give this argument also an eight out
of tenwait we have a special appearance by my
friend tim cook right here yeahtiny tim tiny tim right there hi mike
here's zoom backdrop thank goodness mydecision is not subject congressional
approvali'm gonna drop a statement into troutyuh cop out um we're not gonna answer
this question dave i do thinkthe the points you guys make for the
relative sides playing the advocatesuh cover i think a large portion of it
butit merits diving deeper and this i think
we can come at it from the perspectiveof the
developer relationship and then also theuser and
consumer relationship right let's startwith the apple side we're going to go in
reverse order the argument thatfrom apple seems to be twofold one that
thisend-to-end system of owning the stack
from the hardware to the software thingsthat at least us in the media
and users have uh have have touted astheir strength they have acknowledged as
one of the reasons for their successeven though that's not a guarantee right
people who own their systems and to endif that's not a good experience
it can be a big disadvantage to themthey've made it an advantage to them
maybe one of the reasonsthat they can operate at the scale they
can engineer this level and have aquality of experience that is up to
apple standards what whatever you maythink of those
standards and that experience it'sdesigned it's intentional
and part of that now bleeds into notonly the app store but also the payment
systemsnot only with apple pay but also in-app
purchases and then when we talk about 10years ago and
steve jobs making an announcement aboutthe app store remember
app store wasn't a launch with ios thatwas that came later
web apps the i ios iphone osand the iphone open with a relatively
open systemof quote-unquote applications you could
design a website that could provideyou know as long as work with their
mobile safari uhprovide that type of you know in phone
experiencewhen they did the app store that 30 cut
was i thinklike you said jeremy in their minds
not a money making operation it was tooffset not only development costs but
also the credit cardprocessing fees 99 apps this is all
analogous tothe itunes model they'd already
established and was a little bit of amoney maker
for them that of course 10 years lateris a whole different world and in-app
purchasesis i think what we're talking right now
and we can't it'd be remiss not to talkabout
amazon as the other kind of you knowplayer in this and the
the fight between amazon and apple uhwith uh in-app purchases to this day you
still cannotin audible you know make an e-book
purchasein uh you have to and amazon has seeded
that 30 in things like prime video andyou know
if you make a rental they will pay thatbut
and even in amazon one of the big titansin the tech industry and
orders of magnitude bigger than in epicgames have played by these rules
and so you got to wonder what is itabout this that from epic's perspective
you know makes them unique what is thatvalue that they think they bring
and i think then going from thedeveloper relationship side
uh to the consumer side it really isdoes apple
and that end-to-end system with your thesecurity and the peace of mind of having
an approved app download systemand certified you know virus free
distribution platformuh and seamless way to buy things is
thatand also being tightly integrated ios is
that the value proposition to consumeror does epic think that they bring more
to a platform like iosbecause the kids love playing fortnite
and it's okay so likei i am um i
am uh sensitive to the argument of howmuch apple has invested to build this
ecosystemand it is a trusted ecosystem i don't
care about epic like i like honestly icould care
you know two you know nothings aboutwhether epic is able to get 10 the
important thing is thatuh epic has enough money and seems mad
enoughto have marshall the resources to
actually engage in the fightbut to see if there's nefarious
practices thatthat have gone on beyond this behind the
scenes that are much morelike what we consider uh a you know
trust likea monopoly type behavior um if they're
activelydiscouraging if they're making other
deals with other companiesthat bypasses 30 and marshalling that
law firm is importantso i think this is important for these
small indie companiesand uh so that's what i'm interested in
i'm actually on epic side but notbecause of
why epic is engaging in this fight epicis engaging this fight because i do
believe fortnite is plateauingand they need to find ways to increase
revenue on it and soyou know whatever i you know that's
that's the life of being that's theirmotivation right
how principled is this fight is this afight it's not principle it's about
moneyand but i think the the potential
benefits of this lawsuit especially whothey hired
which is a mega firm that deals inantitrust stuff
uh is significant so i'm curious howthat process goes
i like i'm not a legal scholar i can'tyou know comment on that but i i think
apple still has the better hand they'renot a monopoly here
there is google play there is the amazonapp store for whatever you want to call
itthat that fortnite can um then go to
and there's they don't have necessarilythe sole market share i'll also make
that argumentone point is i'll say that i also want
to acknowledge the consoleswhich is also the the other parallel
herein which you know epic has
played well with xbox and sony investorsof their engine
uh and and pay what we assume to besimilar
cuts to those uh those manufacturersthose platforms which are also closed
systemswalled gardens uh and so again that
leads to how principled isthis fight another point i want to make
is that while they also have thebillions
um to make the legal battle they alsohave
which might be more important the userbase the the fervent you know
the tick tock and the the youtubers thatcan play for their side
uh and maybe they think that's even moreof a compelling
um part of their arsenalto make this fight yeah i
i concede i would agree totally thatepic is doing this for money
tim sweeney even you know said as muchon twitter and said that there's nothing
wrong with thatdefending that saying that uh you know
that money is something that we workvery hard for
and you know it's up to this is anargument about how that those monies
should be distributed whether theyshould be
you know paid to middlemen who didnothing except for
a step you know keep an app storerunning thirty percent of
all quite a lot of money going to thesemiddlemen versus
staying with the consumers or going withepic um
it's funny because that's going to beapple's argument too it's like we put a
lot of effort to build this thingbut you know so we deserve to get paid
for it you know likewhen i first heard about this argument i
was actually on apple's side i was likewell this is the industry standard
everybody does 30as you said norm the console's included
and i don't see epic making the stinkabout that
they did bring a lawsuit against googleas well as apple but they're
mainly focused on apple and i thinkthat's because if you were to change
appleeveryone else would fall in line like
that's that's the reason you focus onthem
and i don't think that we're going toget to a point where apple
there's no way never say it's never buti i
cannot see a future app opens up theirclosed system
as a result of this lawsuit uh even ifthey're forced to
you know it is against their core of howthey operate in terms of
side loading right and you can make theargument on mac os on
on the mac side you know we you've beenable to download
you know the dmgs and and open open andthird-party applications uh but i just
don't see that onon ios there's too strong an argument
about securityand uh you know um stability that
they've always fallen back onand it's it's a good argument they're
gonna have a hard time yeah i thinkyou're right epp's gonna have a hard
time beating that door down but iwouldn't be surprised if
i mean apple has who knows i mean what ithink
this is nothing to apple as you as yousaid kishore but at the same time i
think that uh you know with congresslooking at them for antitrust
you know right now already um and thenmaybe
you know this being more public backlashthan they
anticipated it's possible they don'tneed this revenue they really don't
but apple does not know how to decreaseprofits like that's not in their dna
they only know how to go up and theirshareholders would expect that of them
soit would be a difficult pill to swallow
but thethe thing that everybody has to
acknowledge is that the revenue they'reearning from the app store
is absurd like it really is likeway beyond any kind of upkeep costs
and it is a major major percentage oftheir services bottom line which
you know is what they report on everyquarter
yeah and it's absurd from i meanit's absurd to talk about uh people
worth billions of dollars and companiesworth trillions of dollars a well i mean
there's the scale of this operation isabsurd because we can't comprehend it no
company inthe history of capitalism has ever been
this bigi don't think that's a that's the the
fair argumentfor that this shouldn't happen this way
because this iscapitalism but i think the point you're
trying to make is thatapple cannot make the argument that
steve jobs did 10 years agothat the app store isn't an actual
important part of their bottom lineis an important part of their services
which for them and the messaging theywant to get across to their investors
is the post hardware world of apple youknow the rumors of them
developing their their bundle apple oneservice like that's how
they're going to grow their business andcontinue uh revenue growth
is through services and this kind ofabsolutely bolsters that
that is the right approach like makingtheir
take on app fees enough to cover theircosts
is the right approach it's best forconsumers it is because
you know it allows developers to makethe most profit which makes them happy
and allows the consumers to pay aslittle as possible
so it makes their platform better itjust earns them less money
so it's maybe a longer tail effect but ireally do think that that's worth
them considering do you think they'restuck in a precedent that they establish
themselvesyeah that they they can't get out of
yeah firstoh yeah i mean i don't think there's any
flinchingthis is going to court this is a real
problem though in the near term for epicif they lose this license that like in
two weeks that's a majorincumbent to to to epic development of
the unreal engineright and based on the terms i know
there was question about whether applehad the right to take away
the the license developer license and ithink within
the developer license agreement if youpick that apart you know they were
within the rights because epic wasclear in why they implemented their
violation and their ownpayment app system from a user
perspective are youjust just money asideare you and okay with you and your kids
for exampleworking in multiple payment systems on a
mobile devicei think that is different than on a
desktoplike having a phone you pay on
most of your phone with whateverbuilt-in you know you buy your apps with
a certain payment system but once you'rein the app you gotta
you know do your own registration formyour own login your
your credit card again within the apphow comfortable are you
with that is that a lot of encompassingisn't that the same thing that i'm
experiencing with likeeight streaming services like i know
it's different in the sense that you'retalking about
unified payment but it's not thatdifferent from an experience standpoint
like i feel like i'm bopping around fromservice to service right now
um so i feel like that's no differentwe're browsing the web
you know i've got a credit card numbersthat auto populate on most websites
that's that's thethis the paypal argument right you have
paypal does the exact same thingthat you don't have to use apple pay for
for buying stuff on the webyeah i think if you look at the uh the
web experience as the analogypeople are fine with that it is in some
places less secureum and security at that scale is that's
going to be apple's apple's argumentyeah
all right uh anything more any finalwords i think this is going to be an
ongoing thing let's keep on keep onreporting
on it as this is going to take yearsthat's the thing i'll say
this is not some quick kick quick fightthat's going to be over next week i mean
we'll we'll discuss this facebook youknow oculus
news later in the show but it it relatedto that um
people have talked about you know oculustakes 30 percent and it's
too much because the market is actuallytoo small right now
so it's interesting just to think aboutlike how much a company should be taking
it might actually start out small getlarger as it grows and then
once it's as big as apple it should comeback down again it's just
it's the precedence right it is and thatcurve i don't think people think of and
especially the accountants don't thinkof it
as a curve everyone wants to be aplatform and wants that share to be
like you know you're right at certainscales
it doesn't make sense especially whenthe people creating the platforms
don't need that doesn't have any effectin the bottom line yeah
like it even was for apple 10 years agoanyway uh we're going to talk about that
topicnext because we're going reverse order
this week oh wowthe vr minute virtual reality
this weekso who wants to get ratioed
i think i think facebook got ratiooculus got ratio
yesterday with their announcement thisis the biggest news certainly
in our world in the vr world what doesthat mean
it means their announcement got acertain number of likes and retweets
and the follow-up repliesthat were negative
got way more oh wow likes and retweetsokay um in this case coming from htc
viveand uh hp um who are
you know taking advantage of thissituation so but let's talk about what
the situationis exactly in case you haven't heard uh
facebook oculus made an announcement tothat they're changing their terms of
service thatuh for devices going forward and this is
apoint of detail and clarification
starting in 2023uh they're unifying their logins so you
must have and you must log intoa facebook account to use a oculus
device for future hardware does notaffect
i want i want to be clear on the dateyou said
2023 three i believeis the three years announcement that's
when they madethem it's very this is the point that's
worth discussinga lot of it is because we are presumably
a month out like we said last week fromwhenever they were gonna host
an oculus connect we assume there willbe an oculus connect
this year in virtual form and they weregonna they saved their big announcements
for that so why make this announcementnow
uh is it to get ahead of that news thatuh
is to is it to get through the newscycle i'm sure they expected
a lot of retaliatory feedbacki don't know if they expect it at this
this extent because it hasshocked maybe not so much shock but it's
definitely um brought a lot ofnot just users but developers out of the
workbook talking about their experiencesand
how they feel about this so did youmention october
of this year in your recap becausethat's part of the news is that
this year in october any umnew hardware that's sold will require
that like this yearwill require a facebook account
activation whereas it'scurrent hardware of like existing users
like you and me we won't have tomerge our accounts until 2023. so if you
buy a a questor a rift in october right you have to
use they're they're getting rid of thatoculus login system but keeping it for
legacy users so get your hardware now iguess if you especially yeah your
revenue request is not your goals youcan't buy those anymore
um let's talk about why there's such astrong reaction
to this and uh from the user perspectiveand we're gonna again talk about users
and developers from the user perspectiveone there's just negative facebook
sentiment right likethe practices that they've seen uh in
terms ofum the culture that some of those
communities cultivateuh and tying to those accounts people
don't likeuh i don't think this would be as big of
an issue if people like facebookas a company as a service more uh and
if you think about services that theyalso own like instagram it's not
a requirement instagram is many timesmany orders of magnitude
bigger than oculus right now soyou know obviously facebook making a big
investment in oculus and seeingit vr and mixed reality as a
major platform in the future this seemsto be
them doubling down on that and makingsure that
you know in the terms of service theycan sell you ads based on your facebook
profile based on the types of things youdo in vr
and this seems to be where so much ofthat concern is there's also
the the promise keeping so uh whenoculus first sold to facebook
you know then uh i guess it wasn't ceobut co-founder palmer lucky had said
that they would never require that youhave a facebook account
to use an oculus device and he came outyesterday to say
no he was wrong he was uh he wasmistaken
i missed that uh that people who hadconcerns about that were probably more
in touch with the realityof it than he was and people some people
areyou know giving him grief over that that
as a founder and and this is somethingthat
you know small companies who get takenover by big companies see all the time
this should have not been a surpriseeven for people in the company but maybe
they were you know they were rememberedwith that
acquisition and that partnership i justwant to reiterate
how much vitriol there was over this iwas
really quite surprised i went to theoculus subreddit which you think
is gonna be like the place you'll findthe fanboys
and like the thread that covered thistopic was literally
every comment was negative there was onethere was one at the bottom
that said um i don't care i've alreadymerged my accounts
and i had to uncurl that account becauseit had been downvoted six times
yeah yeah yeah soi think it goes to all the things we
talked about in terms of the promisethat was made on the oculus side
yeah the just the distaste for a lot ofthe practices and the communities and
services of facebook right nowuh the fear that people have of how
that their data will be used for adpurposes
and also the position of strength thatfacebook has right now and oculus has
right now in the vryou know community this is not an apple
googleyou know ios android world where there
is at least on the mobile vrside an alternative and you know you
have to creditthat the the strength of quest right now
to the money thatfacebook put into that platform right
um like so much of vrexists right now in in the oculus world
becauseof all that money um and i i think this
this isn't a like i'm not shocked bythis
that they're doing thisi'm shocked it took so long
i thinki'm happy that people are complaining
and i think if there'sif they want this to not happen if then
they should complain moreand they should stop buying those
products and move the needleuh i don't know if that's going to
actually happen but i think that it'sworth voicing that opinion and i'm sure
the people within facebook and oculusare aware of it uh they might not be
those people may not be the ones makingthe decision also
exactly yeah but yeah you know thesethese voices should be heard
and you know and and developers it'seven
i think more important developers arecoming out and talking about their
experiences it's worth readinglike from darshan he had a twitter
thread aboutyou know how this handicaps him how
something the policy is like the 30cut handicaps his business because of
the kind ofrelationships he has had with the
studios and in distributing filmshe's the ceo of big screen big screen
exactlythis this feels like an old fight too on
some waylike this is a fight that every time i
buy a piece of hardware do iwhat do i actually own about it and
being tied tohow i um use it like
i don't know i just had installed awindows update the other day and it's
likehere comes microsoft edge back on your
computer and like you know like there'salways been that tension regardless of
hardwareso in a way that i'm with jeremy i'm
surprised this didn't come soonerbut this isn't a surprising announcement
in a lot of ways the thing like quest isfar and away
the best you know stand-alone sixth offheadset you can buy like everybody knows
that and saysit's been a game changer for the vr
industry and if ifoculus maintains their lead with the
next generation of this technologyof course i'm going to buy it and i
i have a hard time believing the vrfaith like the vr hardcore the true
believersaren't going to buy it too even if they
have to sign up with their facebookaccount
and where i come from with that is likeand i and i almost i'm afraid to share
my opinion because ofall the vitriol on that's surrounding
this topic buthonestly people make a separate
facebook account just make a new accountmake a very border account right
what's the difference between doing thatand signing up with some
new you know company and signing up withtheir service just maybe
i'm going to tell you i'm going to tellyou tell me one is that that is
actually against the terms of serviceand
i know it's not in force but how couldthat possibly how can they enforce that
i don't know how they could but ittechnically if you create the account
that's not a representation of youbecause one of the ideas one of the
arguments they're making is that thisties into
you know their social media plans thatthey want people to be tied to their
real id and theirlegitimate concerns about doxxing and
about identity in vruh because the one of the promises of vr
is to be who you want to be and notnecessarily have it tracked to
you know who you are but i'm not goingto they're pros and cons i'm not going
to say i'm norman chan i'm going to sayi'm me
it's just going to be a second q thoughthat's you though right
so i'm saying that their terms ofservice say that if people
create accounts andthen they have the right if they create
accounts just for the sake of gettingbypassing
right this then they might lose thoseaccounts in the future and the purchases
they make it's a risk you takeright and maybe it's the risk that
you're okay with the i thinkanother completely valid objection to
thatare people who for education purposes
who bought multiple headsets ordevelopers who need multiple headsets
and don't have multiple facebookaccounts to run you know
dozens of heads that they need fordevelopment or for education or for
enterprisesame or enterprise i'm sure they'll
solve that problem welltheir solution for is 400 a year per
headset as an enterprisefee which people some a lot of small
time developers andpeople in education can't afford and you
know andyou can make the argument again about
whether that's the right thing to chargeand that they have a right to charge an
enterprise feefor for enterprise services but i think
that stiflesgrowth and innovation in vr and the
versatility and the opennessof vr also well back to my suggestion
that you open a new accounti'm sort of in that position already
except i only have one accountand the trick is don't use facebook for
anything elselike i i'm not on there like i haven't
posted to my facebook wall in five yearsand it's just something i signed into
things withi up you know i'm a member of a couple
groups private groupsbut i don't use facebook i mean if you
there's no difference between not buyingyou know not using facebook and just
using it in order to sign into yourvr headset i i don't see the the
conflict therei think there's also a fundamental
problemand the dissociation people have with vr
as hardware and what the business modelis
because when we look at vr devices it isyou know on the surface we want to think
of them as similar toother electronics we buy computing
devices tablets phonespcs game consoles where the business
models areyou pay for the hardware you pay for the
softwarethat's the transaction and you know at
least from apple's perspectiveyou know they make their business not
about personal informationand and just about the transaction of
buying applications and buying hardwarewhereas the fear here is the facebook
modelisn't even like the console model where
they're making a loss in hardware andmaking it back in software
the fear is that it's about owninginformation
about you even anonymously that youdon't
want to give out because you're givingit out subconsciously eye tracking
body movements head movements thing thatwe we're just
as society unprepared forpsychologically
you know it's the ready player one it'sit's it's uh it's nolan sorrento
making his board meeting and saying wecan cover x and i don't think it's going
to get to that point like the userexperience
there's still a user experience you knowto
to to service and to develop for andyou know and but it's about the things
that most peoplewho aren't tuned to this podcast who
maybe just want to play beat saberor want to play something cool in vr
that they don't knowyou know it's it's very reminiscent it
is an old fight it's very reminiscent tothe
days of cookie tracking you know on webbrowsers um and maybe we can look to
that modelto see where how this will end up
because that's still happening today youknow the web tracking and
to a large extent it's been acceptedas a part of that web browsing
experience but then you also havelegislation uh that requires the
opt-in for that on websites yeah thathappened a couple months ago everywhere
you go now you have to opt into thecookies yeah
yeah yeah so maybe legislation thatthat gets people more accepting of us at
the end of it allum but all these factors of the promise
keeping of what what you know whatoculus said when they were first
acquiredto the strength of facebook right now
right being kind of the only option inmobile vr space
uh to the the kind of the the awarenessthat enthusiasts have about the future
of vrand what can be tracked and and then the
fundamental business model differencesbetween this as a piece of hardware
versus other electronics we buy all thatand also then
on top of that just the general distasteof the type of cultures that we see
on facebook um all that have compoundedto make
this vitriol reaction i think that's afair assessment of the situation
right 32 and we only have a half hourfor the rest of the show oh my goodness
you are absolutely right let's talkabout some games and content
uh this is a game that's not coming outon quest so you can look forward to that
onsteam and other platforms it's from
servios it's a walking dead game this isremember there are two walking dead vr
games coming outuh this is walking dead onslaught and
they now have a release dateuh pre-order september end of september
is when it's coming out i believeseptember 28
is that right yeah um but this is fromskydance oh sorry not the one from
skydeserts from serviosuh september 29th and this one has the
licenses of the tv showoh i got a demo visit like a couple
years ago at jesus did youthey didn't even they didn't even want
us to they didn't even want us to knowas walking dead like the logo popped up
there and they're like just ignore thatignore that
but um the the tech in this is gruesomelike
they have serious like levels of gorewhere you can like remove skin from bone
it's nutsyeah all right cool i'm looking forward
to playing thatuh return a castle wolfenstein is
something you can nowsideload on on quest
i haven't played it yet have you jeremyuh why no because i'm not in the beta
it's out tomorrowie today if you're listening to the
podcast um can't wait to play it umit was on sale on steam or maybe even
free or something like that this week sosuper cheap on steam you're gonna need
the full game to play it uh but it'sgonna be side loadable just like
quake and half life were uh fantasticthis is
i love this guy's mods fantastic yeah ireally hope that
one thing that i i mean this is goingback to the last story
we can still sideload things right nowand play things on desktop vr and mobile
vrand that's one of those things that we
absolutely need to protectas well because a place like sidequest
is great for developersyou know the user base it's only in the
thousands it's not thehundreds of thousands but as a place to
quickly releaseand get basically early access to
content i think it's really important toto vr experimentation uh sidequest
sidequest yeah absolutely they had a bigupdate
today actually a full rescan of their oftheir app yeah
all right let's quickly move on then uhbecause we got to get to the segment we
didn't have last weekand that is oh my gosh where's my music
oh so caught up in this i have one ohyou have one more thing hold on hold on
let me turn okay yeah one more thing goahead
tactical haptics oh yes i'm sorry aboutthat yes yes yes
not in the show list here but um yes wehave a bit of a heads up that later
today if you're listening to us onthursday they will be
announcing um some updates these are theguys that we put on projections almost a
year agoat um gosh at augmented world expo awe
yeah where they they had the hapticsthat did the shearing effect where they
had these two things that would go upand down on your hand and it had a
reallynovel approach to haptics i think i
called it like my favorite approach thati'd experienced up until then
well they they have been working youknow since last year around the clock
and they have some new designs thatthey've announced um one
is this with um looks like a it's asimplified
version of what they had which is morelike a lightsaber kind of design where
you can attacheither oculus to the top or a vive puck
uh but it uses the same shearing uheffect
as their classic design so those twogrip pads you see on the left and right
those pads where you hold and you feelyour palm we have a lot of
nerve endings as well as the fingertipswe have so many nerve endings
they those pads move up and down andthey kind of
rub against your skin to create thesimulation of
weight and and and resistanceyeah it is surprisingly effective and it
can do what what i think is mostinteresting is like unlike traditional
hapticswhere it rumbles or shakes momentarily
or repeatedlythis can create constant force so those
can move in one directionand stay there which makes this you know
gives the feeling of like constantweight or you know something like that
it's really really coolthey call this the uh sabre grip
um it's i they had already been sellingit to location-based
um lbes uh before kovid andthen they had to put things on pause but
that that hopefully is going to be a newcommercial product that they'll be
shipping but then they also have thisother thing that they're
uh that they've been working on which isa they noticed when
uh we interviewed them in the commentsthat people were super interested in
this approachyou know besides the haptics they had
this cool magnetic approach to theirum their um whatever their their
containers where they would connectconnect to each other in different ways
to create different interfacesand they basically made that just for
quest uh or touch controllersi suppose it would work on the right so
this is a passive system whereyou don't need to have any custom
programming it literally is a way asopposed to attaching a pvc pipe and
making gripsfor your quest to simulate holding a
sword orhandlebars or a two-handed rifle uh you
can justmount these in and these strong magnets
attach themthat's great i think this is the kind of
thing that i think appeals most toconsumers i mean
the other stuff is really location basedfocus but this is the kind of thing that
this would work you know a game couldimplement support for this without
you know without needing to access anykind of hardware since it's a passive
deviceyou just need to add support for that
position and you couldreliably detect when it's in that
position or change this to a differentone
and alter your game you know that'sfascinating
right because you can absolutely becauseyou have sixed off tracking
all you do is get the pose locked in andsense that it's kind of
not shifting from that pose and so youcan assume that they're locked in
and then it would enable some type ofmode in software that's great i love
that ideayeah exactly yeah so wish him luck i
took out tactical haptics i think.comand uh there's a few other announcements
that they made today as well awesomevery cool i i i want to try their saver
gripyes get us a saber grip we'll do an
episode about itplease technical haptics uh okay now
let's move onto our next segment here we gonow it's time for a moment of science
uh so just a quick story this week andi'm gonna talk about testing but
maybe not the way you expect so uh ifyou
think about how somebody gets infectedin the viral load so if you say day zero
i just get the virus you start with verylittle virus in your system
uh and then it slowly replicates in yourbody and it builds up over time
uh and so for and these are sort ofgross numbers but just sort of take it
as a generalizationif you're somebody that actually becomes
symptomaticit usually takes uh around like five
daysfor you to from when you get the virus
to when you develop symptomsduring that course during the first few
days you go from basically like no virusto
maybe around like a hundred uh to uhlike a virus consultation around like
you know ten to the onemaybe ten to the two by like day three
day fourat those levels like at uh at a viral
concentrationof of uh a hundred to a thousand the pcr
tests that we use right now can pick itup
because they're high sensitivity they'remeant to do that
um but you really don't becomecontagious quote unquote until the viral
load gets to likea thousand so you have like another day
or two and thenwe think between days like five and ten
is when you're most transmissible whenthe viral load increases like
significantlyso one question that's been raised by a
number of researchers i think michaelminnow from the
harvard school of public health has beenone of the chief people popularizing
thisis are we testing the wrong way like
we're testing what these super highsensitivity tests to pick up
when anyone has any virus but what if wejust tried to find the people that were
translike able to transmit virus like those
people that had gotten to likea thousand or ten thousand viral
and there's a cheaper way to do thatbecause there's a low sensitivity test
that you could just take at home thatdoesn't require any chemicals that just
uses your salivaand those tests have been in existence
and the fda this weekuh approved a a protocol called saliva
directuh i think it was on uh monday
it might have been monday or tuesday itwas just a few days ago
that they approved this this is aprotocol developed out of yale
um and the protocol allows you to take asaliva sample
um and get results within three to fivehours
uh of the of the test and now it haslower sensitivity
than the current tests but the materialscost for it is about four dollars a test
the current cost for a high sensitivitytest
in just materials is about a hundreddollars
and what this will do if we can scalesomething like this
is you can get results in a matter ofhours it's a lot cheaper by a factor of
20and it allows us to rapidly do multiple
tests around the same peopleover a short period of time so let's say
you're a college campusyou have 20 000 kids on your campus you
need to not just be able to do one testyou have to do multiple tests on them in
a weekhow are you going to pay 20 000 times
100 times the number of times you wantto do that test
where if it's 20 000 times like fivebucks
uh you can do a couple tests a week veryquickly
find the people that are most that aretransmitting the virus
and quarantine them so this idea behindsaliva direct
is can be revolutionary if we scale thisin really quickly
and allow us to continue to scaletesting which is largely plateaued in
this countryuh in a way that we haven't seen before
just because the cost but moreimportantly the turnaround time
and you know what is really interestingabout the story uh
any guesses who funded um the work thatwent into
make saliva direct happen uh you wantwhat type of industry
you won't guess i will tell you thatit's the nbabecause of the bubble they needed to
developa quick effective test that was low
turnaround and alsonot take away capacity from testing in
florida where there was a significantoutbreak
and so they had funded research and inpart
supported this work and it uh so it's amassive win
all around if we're able to put thisinto practice but i just want to
emphasizethat when it comes to testing you can
either have high sensitivityspeed and umand a low cost but you you can of those
three you can probably have twoyou probably can't have all three so
this is anopportunity for us to think about what
does it look like to do something that'slow cost with speed
um instead of necessarily having themost accurate
um diagnosis as a way of like curtailingthis virus this could really be
revolutionary if we're able to implementit do you think there's
a test that could be applied to othercoronaviruses
i mean the other coronaviruses thatexist are like common colds and so
we like they don't put people in thehospital so but i'm wondering
going forward you know assuming we'llhave another pandemic is this something
thatwe can take uh learning experience very
much so very muchbut i think the idea here is we only
have to do this now because of theposition we're it
because there's so much virus in thiscountry the idea is
you don't get to this point if you makedecisive early quick action
and then we're not talking about thislike korea never had to get south korea
never had to get into the situationabout arguing about testing
because of protocols they put in placeearly that's a much better place to be
inoverall uh so i think this would be down
the list but yes it can totally beapplied forward to the next pandemic but
you would hope we'd never get into thissituation from a communication
standpoint do you thinkthat there would need to be delineation
or currentlyneeds to be delineated in terms of
testing because that kind of all getsbundled into one statistic which is easy
to processbut can be misinterpreted in many ways
especially when you have something likethis
where you're looking for differentthings and
it's already happening right now so umforget put aside the saliva test which
reallyisn't you know highly in the marketplace
right now there's a few places that aredoing it like the university of illinois
i believe it's doing this withwith college students um but when you
look at state testing data a lot of whatyou see
is a combination of multiple testingtypes so you'll see antibody tests mixed
in there with the pcrtest so we're already there norm so um
i think in a noisy environment um addingmore noise
maybe not um not necessarily changinganything
got it delineation is good all rightclarification context
always go for more context thanks forthe science update
this week we're going to move rightalong for a short technology segmentoh we did cover a lot of tech in our top
stories in vr already so we're going togo through a
speed round of tech uh first of all uhamazon uh court in where
this court appeals court california uhheld that
amazon can be held liable for damagesand injuries sold
by caused by faulty products sold bythird
party marketplace this wasa reversal of a superior court decision
that amazon couldn't beresponsible and this i think is a good
thing because hopefully it gets amazon'sact together in terms of regulating
some of those third-party products rightnow it's kind of wild west
uh in terms of the quality of the thingsyou buy
not directly from them i think there's abig deal
because it also means if amazon's forcedto deal with this they probably are
going to have to be more active aboutpulling counterfeit merchandise from
their marketplaceso that's going to reduce the amount of
stuffavailable on amazon creating like a
potentially like a limiteda slightly more limited funnel might
lead to some increases in prices tooon certain products too i think this is
really interesting to follow i'm gladit's happening
but i think there'll be some downstreameffects of them putting this into
practicejust to be clear this isn't somebody who
bought a battery it thought it was anenergizer and it was a you know didn't
have the name brand on it this is awoman who bought a laptop battery put it
in her laptop and it caught on fireand i gave her third degree burns and so
yeah i mean i'm with cashore i thinkyou know whether or not you think it's a
fair thing for amazonthis is a good thing for consumers yeah
yeahyeah more accountability in their system
not so close kind of the opposite anyonecan sell anything right now
as long as they give that that cut andthat data
to amazon all right we mentioned thisearlier app the rumor is that apple is
going tostart doing a subscription service now
this isn't the one that we predicteduh years ago in terms of the hardware
subscription service which i still thinkis going to come i think but that's
probably more of an accounting issuethan anything because right now you have
thatiphone you know uh monthly payment plan
but they have to create this whole banksystem
um so apple gets to all that money upfront and then you're paying this bank
on a zero interest based system thismonthly fee but i do think we're gonna
get there we're gonna do a bundle we'regonna watch a phone
and maybe something else for i think youknow they want to get your hundred
dollars a month butoutside of that service to services
services therumor is it's gonna be called apple one
anchored by applemusic and apple tv plus i'll give you
one guess as to which you think is thestronger
of these services and and thenuh they were gonna tear that up with
arcadenews and on top of that the rumor is
icloud service now if you look at thisit's
in it's very much indicative to me ofwhich services they think
are strongest to them becauseyou know if you design a tiered system
you got to put inlike like if you look again look at the
amazon model you put in the essentialservice first or the one that people
value the most first in this case anapple it's apple music
it's one that people are paying for usepaying for apple tv plus i think they're
still struggling on making thatthe value proposition worth it and so
bundle thatmakes total sense apple news and arcade
i think those are those are still iffypropositions right now especially arcade
strong launch kind of petered off not alot of news about the games and stuff
that i've beenpart of that uh but i think those are
also ones that they can't justgroup in because there are a lot of
partners that they need topay their as rightly so they're cut to
and so thoseneed to be add-on putting icloud at the
topthat is a brilliant move on their end
because that is another one of thoseessential services where people
may not know not know they need it butyou know once you're on board on icloud
it just it changes the way you use thehardware you've already spent a thousand
dollars onbecause it really is an essential
service in today's world going forwardespecially for people who've adopted
i i've apple devices for a long time youneed
those big family plans of uh onlinestorage
apple of them too because it locks youin there once you oh yeah have so much
data up there that you're over the limityou can't
downgrade or you lose your data it's theproblem it's a problem
that's gonna grow over time uhin favor of apple and at the cost the
literal cost of usersyou know 10 years now that we're what 13
years ofowning iphones your photos that you have
on your firstiphones they're either stuck on those
phonesmost of the time very few people have
you knowsync those even on the mac side to their
photos appor on their pc sync those using icloud
for windowsyou know downloaded those on the pc
they're basically i think for a largenumber people
locking their phones or you're payingapple
to store them on icloud and as thecamera sensors got bigger and as the
resolution got bigger on those phones asyou can shoot 4k video
it's just gonna be more and more i meani have a 256 gig phone
and it's out of storage just for videosand
you know i don't want to micromanagethat and i don't want those photos and
those videos to go away and so i'm kindof
held hostage by apple um and holdingthose
onto on icloud yeah i hear you out therei could spend half a day's time and sync
everything to my pcbut that's not how most people operate
and when you're moving from phone tophone
you know uh year to year or every otheryear every third year
you want to have those that media onyour new phones as well
it's just the way it is well yeah youalso had a baby in the age of 4k video
sodeal with iti had the baby in the age of 5k stereo
videojeremy i have gigabytes and gigabytes of
stereo video then that stuff eats uphard drives
and stores solid state drives likenothing
anyway that's a different type ofproblem okay uh netflix announced that
they areuh introducing a shuffle button
now i have an idea in my head thisto work but how is this going to work
well they're only not they're they'reonly it's not something that's going to
go live unless peopleget dig it uh but a few people have
discovered that they log ininstead of along with all the users that
you can choose from in your accountsthere's a button that just says surprise
me you know shuffleand it will play a random show it by all
accounts so far it seems to only beplaying netflix
shows but um it will play you a randomepisode of a random tv show
and uh it's just you know it's a shufflebutton see what you see what you get
maybe you're up for a spin in that wheelno hey guys remember when we when we all
used to hit the i'm feeling lucky buttonon google
remember that remember how we used touse that feature and continue to use
that featureall the time that that is different that
is different because that was like thetopic
that was the top result this is trulylike like chat roulette
this is more like oh so you're sayingthis is worse cool
yes yes presumably if theyintroduce you to a new show it's not
like you're going to watch one episodeof the cr it's not going to jump in the
middle of the crownright it's not going to be like here
here's a randomfourth season episode of orange's new
black or house of cards they're going tothrow you into the pilot and then get
you to binge right it's just likethis is just an entry point into one of
their series i would hope sobut the article i read said a random
episodethat doesn't seem like the right way to
do it right although that i would saythat is the tv
experience though that is channelflipping yes at that point don't throw
me at the beginning episodethrow me into like 20 minutes in like
sink with the time of dayright i might like it's it's you know
it's 12 50 right now i want to catch thelast 10 minutes
i mean that i have some of my best likei need to burn
15 minutes before my next phone call andi need to scarf down lunch
give me the last 15 minutes of a law andorder because that's what i want to see
at this momentand then i can kind of reverse that's a
fun intellectual exercise of deducingwhat happened beforehand
and maybe you might get me to reverseyou know uh re-watch that thing later
same with movies get me to a ainteresting climax they have the viewer
data they knowthe curves about the uh the heat maps of
which part of episodes and movies peoplelike watching the most
really right like throw me into knowingthat you know i have 20 minutes or
something throw me into the best part ofgardens the galaxy
and you know what here you describe iti'm into it like
discoverability on netflix is as bad asit is on ios
like there's so much content there andyou can't possibly explore it you might
as well shuffle it and just give mesomething at random
yeah and then the way i really want thisto work is
not just with netflix exclusive showsbut the library of shows i know they
don't the simpsons but you knowif someone's gonna watch uh a west wing
i want i want the button that gives methe random episode
just within the parameters of thisseries star trek give me a random
star trek episode right or tng episodethat's what i want that's that's also
anotherpart of the channel surfing experience i
got an ideawhy don't they do a bunch of like they
could create a hundred stationsand you could join them and they're live
synced witheveryone else in the world who's
watching that station and you can go tothe chat room for that station and chat
with peopledot fm star trek 24 hours a day
turntable.fmapple apple one apple music one
right the shared communal experienceexactly you know if you don't i mean
there are third-party syncing things umbut
yeah some type of one-to-many i meanamazon's
smartly doing that with twitch andletting people
broadcast twitch and do commentariesthemselves about amazon prime
content and if people have amazon primethen they can
easily click in and get whatever thatpiece content is synced live to their
audienceso it might not be you know one to a
million or tens of millions but forthousands of users who follow those
streamers to do thatthat is that and it's exactly what term
table fm was doing10 years ago now for music uh that was
super fun andwe want that spotify didn't really
capitalize on it you know andfor video i don't see netflix experimentall right uh what's next uh
untitled goose game geese gamegeese game we're getting multiplayer an
untitled goose gameone of my favorite games of last year
now you can play multiplayerawesome sign me up all right there what
did you play on the newsswitch i played on switch yep i haven't
played it yet i need toupdate incredible uh speaking of oh good
yeah it is free right yep free september23rd
uh speaking about the free update alsomultiplayer this is a big surprise ghost
of tsushima which i've beenenjoying on ps4 uh is getting
two-player and four-player co-opmultiplayer as well as a raid mode not
for the whole gamenot for the game so it's gonna be select
because the game is scripted singleplayer
uh but much like red dead redemptionlaunched multiplayer with it online and
people canband together and go on these missions
this would be like that two players cango on these
explore the world and do uh find thesesmall stories so they have these little
vignette storiesum that pop up throughout the world the
mythology that you unearthand they'll allow that and then with
four players they're going to allowthese type of big boss battles and
four player raids so no whole new realmswith terrifying enemies and
challenges so it's gonna keep the legson that going which congrats to them
it's a gorgeous gameyou know sucker punch deserves all the
accolades for makinga wonderful ps4 game uh
panic we have an update on the play dateoh yeah cool what's up when is it coming
outso not that that kind of update
but uh they did show some of uh teasersof games
uh of their third-party titles that andi'm of
two minds about this because i wanti want the games to be a surprise like
the whole idea is this you buy thisdedicated console you pay the speed you
get a season of games that unlockon regular intervals and the idea is the
water cooler moment ofthis month this new small handheld game
unlocks and everyone the playdate playstogether
and chats about on discord or streams orwherever and it compels people to play
these small games with novel controlsthis is the uh gameboy style portable
console with a crank on the sidethe crank um and so the genres i think
i'mokay reading about you know puzzlers
dungeon crawlers you know games liketetris things with tilt controls
uh but i don't actually want to see thegames yet they are sharing it on their
twitter account if you want to followat uh is it at playdate then they will
umthey're they're showing some short
videos it's all gray scale of courseuh but uh they will have an update they
said in the next few months thattalk about their production timeline and
thepre-order process the cool thing that
they that caught firein my twitter stream was doom which of
course it runs doombut what it it does that no other doom
does is the crankcontrols the gatling gunyeah that's awesome all right very good
to know that does it i thinkfor tech news uh this week oh we are
runningvery low on time so we're gonna run
throughpop culture and do i have a queued up i
don't oh my godoh here we go pop culturewe got the dc fan dome event
coming in just a few days august 22ndthis is their virtual event which is
like it's like a coachella style lineupof of
guests and people presenting all sortsof stuff from the dc universe
uh not just the movies but tv shows andeverything it's so big that dc announced
that they're gonna be splitting into twoevents now one
in august and one in september they'rebig tentpole stuff if you want to hear
aboutbatman the batman for matt reeves that's
still going to bein um the august event and then the
expanded universe stuff in dc will be inseptember and maybe uh some more
surprises there of course it's alsowhere
zack snyder is showing to be showingmaybe a trailer for his version of
justice leagueand so i know a lot of people online are
looking forward to that you have to signup it's free event
live stream i'm not sure this bluntslike the huge
layoffs that happened at dc last weekbut i
i kind of understand what they're tryingto do yeah it's really something
yeah you know jim lee still there and hewas saying they're still in the business
of comics but acknowledge that you knowthe comics that weren't making money are
going away we didn't talk about thisextensively last week
but you know the idea that comicsis not they don't think it as a big
business for thembut even to not have it as a source of
iplike people love the characters not just
because they love batman superman butbecause the stories
have been ongoing developing right youhave these teases of
even things in the video games like youknow um
a court of owls game from rocksteadyright coming out like we would not have
that storylineif if um if
10 years ago that wasn't a part of thecomic story that's a relatively
recent thing all these fan favoritecreations like in arkham knight
right uh the red hood like all thatstuff are modern takes
right we don't think of these charactersas staying stagnant uh and they
can't just grow and develop on the bigscreen or even the small screen
comics are where artists and writershave the flexibility to tell those
stories and it's a real tragedythat that is a part of business that
because it doesn't make the money and iget that
that they're they're cutting yeah i'lljust say that
they spend a ton of money to build out astreaming service
that they're folding now and so that'swhy
that's why they ran out of money forcomics and other things
yeah yeah oh all right umlast bit confirmation ready player two
audio book will be readby will wheaton his reading of ready
player one is his best workand so i suspect this will be good i'm
excitedand on disney plus uh they're doing a
legostar wars holiday special animations
yeah of all the star wars things torecreate why
the holiday special they're notrecreating the holiday special
they're just they want this to be thecanonical
holiday special going forward and usingthe animation of lego star wars
to do it and got it during irreverenttake
um i think there will be some some likeobvious references to the 1978 special
and maybe this is a wayof soft acknowledging that without
making it canonit is its own thing oh oh it'll stream
on disney plus november 17thyep yep and we're just uh two weeks away
frommulan you guys got your friends queued
up your uh your thirty dollarsmy friends plus your family
uh i mean you guys are gonna rent itright 30 bucks
i'm gonna rent it yeah i don't knowabout i'm gonna rent it
i don't need other people to watch withme
get my my son in the room that's enough15 bucks
each yeah you make make sure you chargethat fee make sure
you make sure make sure it's allaccounted for all right
uh that does it for the podcast thisweek we made it we made it to our
deadline because i actually have toget on the road for another trip uh
videos of which you'll seelater this week and early next week but
thank you guysum for joining me this week thank you
all there for listening if youhave an intro song that you want to
create and share with us we will play inthe future
just send us the soundcloud link eitherover email you can email me norman
tested or you can ping us on twitter andwe'll
save those we have over a dozen still toplay
i have a quick plug a friend of testeddavid peterson
of mouse guard uh is doing a mouse guardonline con
and i'm actually talking about thescience of mouse guard
on thursday night and uh gary is talkingabout like the
the work they had done together onbuilding a mouse guard movie together
uh on saturday and there's lots of greatartists and other people involved in
that online conit's all on uh david peterson's twitch
channelgary uh piloted a new twitch concept
called the um hit like the sweet uh sidsounds of the 80s
it's a whole new talk show where he justtalks over commodore 64 music it's on
his twitch archive and i highlyrecommend it it's fantastic
is it really fantastic or is it thatdoesn't sound really fast
i loved it no no if you know you know ifi said sid music commodore 64 and your
ears perked upyou're who i'm talking to and you should
go listen to this because firstly hedoes this whole one hour
intro with no music where he just talksabout his history and video games and
the computers he owned it'snerdy as hell and the but the music he
chooses isfreaking good so tune in i recommend it
i really enjoyed it i hope he does moreof those
all right all right uh and you gave agreat recommendation um to us uh
captain disillusion a youtube channelhas been killing it with some uh primers
onvideo video and imaging
uh and uh it's yeah the latest colorthis week
oh incredible yeah you know those cdepisodes were supposed to be these
shorter one-offs that he could just youknow pump out and
like the the amount of compositing inmotion graphics he's putting into these
things isoff the chart it's incredible incredible
well worth subscribing toand watching uh thanks for sharing that
jeremy and we do haveuh to share an outro this week this one
also comesfrom black powder engine thank you for
making itthese are awesome i haven't listened to
this one yet either butlet's enjoy it together hi there i
didn't see hermovies are still being made including
juan the thirdthe question is will they continue the
storyline who cares peoplenobody cares okay look i shouldn't say
that because clearly people care youcare about
lower decks so i thinkwow that's the most amount of shade that
jeremy has droppedever on this podcastgo watch lower dex how's episode two
it's fantasticall right see you guys next time bye


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